Saturday, July 09, 2005

The rumor of Kilroy's traffic accident has now been confirmed. Here's the note from a guy who has first-hand knowledge.

"Ernesto (Kilroy) Roybal is alive but not well right now. He owns a trucking business, is active in a local church, does speaking engagements with Art and others who are or have been affiliated with Victory Outreach. He was in a terrible accident and is in a trauma center and is expected to recover. Please keep himn in your thoughts and prayers as he goes through this difficult time. He is a survivor and as he would say.."with God's grace I will survive this as well."
con respecto..."


Anonymous said...

ACCIDENT ? blood in blood out no body is above the rules.

Anonymous said...

hey, has anyone checked out ? I got a membership and the guy filming the action sounds very interesting. he seems to be able to recruit real females from the neighborhoods of Los Angeles where nobody in their right mind would go without protection. I don't get it.

Anonymous said...

BEWARE;this ia porn site

Anonymous said...

There's always someone above the rules!

Anonymous said...

Trucha,the link mentioned above is a porn site

Anonymous said...

He's no good, so what difference does it make?

Anonymous said...

Who's no good? Kilroy or Joe pusher?

Anonymous said...


StillNoScript said...

Tacking on to both topics-

First- The porn site listed above sucks. It's a typical amateur site, and I've seen better. I wouldn't even spring for a trial membership.

On Roybal- I find his story interesting. And now there seems to be a debate as to rather or not there was foulplay. I'm sure we'd definately here about THAT. And I'm sure this is the place we would hear it first. But it sounds like bullshit.

Just like Cosa Nostra, isn't the EME really about money? Don't get me wrong, I KNOW it's roots are culturally based; I'm not saying it's just a bunch of bandits pretending to be revolutionaries. But we know money seriously factors into this organization; And when you look at it from that angle, it seems that they would have an AWFUL LOT to lose financially if they hit Roybal, and nothing to lose financially by letting him go.

It's not like he pulled an Edward James Olmos. The guy is just going from church to church telling kids that gangs are fucked up, and that they should try and get out before they get too deep.

To me, it seems like the movie Casino. Ace Rosthein, played by Robert Deniro, kept on fighting the gaming board to get his licence. The mob was against it, cause it was bringing too much attention. But when it came time to clean house and kill everyone involved with the scheme, they let Ace live. One, because he still made them money; And two, his whole legal battle with the gaming board actually made him look legit to the public in the longrun.

So, if Roybal is doing the church thing and staying as far away from the busines end of EME as possible, then maybe EME's leaders see the good side of that, that it just makes their organization look better to Johnny Q.

Just my thought.

TijuanaJailer said...

Ernest "Kilroy" Roybal hailed from the White Fence street gang in Boyle Heights in East Los Angeles. He's done time in Folsom and most of the heavier prisons and was "state raised" in the C.Y.A. and C.D.C. systems. A shot caller in his years as an EME carnal, Kilroy joined Conrad "Dano" Garcia (San Fernando) and Art "Conejo" Blajos (Primera Flats) at Victory Outreach and they became "born-again Christians". Others have followed.
The law enforcement community is, to this day, divided about the status of these individuals because they feel that unless you roll completely and snitch on your organization, your "change of status" is suspect. There is indeed, no record of these dropouts ever debriefing and they continue to serve their Lord.
Which proves a point I make in a previous post: there ARE known EME dropouts who the EME does NOT take out. The negative attention is unwanted and it is their call to make since it is their organization. Rules can be stretched; rules can be changed to accommodate select EME soldiers (ex-soldiers) and who are we to insist that they have violated their own rules.
That's like saying the EME does not hit police officers. Sure, this is a rule (unwritten) of operation for them but if you were a cop pulling over a couple of known EME heavies, would you waltz right up to their vehicle and not take the necessary precautions since you "know" that EME doesn't hit cops? I think not. I know not. In understanding these guys one thing is certain: they can generally do what they want when they want and the unpredictability factor is always there.
Had they ever considered Kilroy, Dano and Rabbit a threat to the organization, they would have been hit. So you are obviously left with two possible scenarios: 1)they are still active EME members using V.O. as a front or 2)they are serving their Lord, which is a violation of EME rules (to drop out, that is) and have been given a "pass".
Only God, the EME and the guys themselves, know for 100% certain. I wish them success if they are sincere and there will be a cell waiting for them if they are not.

Tijuana Jailer

Anonymous said...

Machiavelli would say that no matter how evil or bad you are, you should always lead people to believe you are a righteous upstanding man. What better way to do this than prentending to be a man of God.
It would serve the Eme well to have leaders who can assimilate into society. The vatos all tatted down with big as brochas and driving lowriders are just asking for LE attention. Being a church leader opens alot more doors into legitimate society than being an obvious gangster.

Sancha said...

Either way, the "unpredicatability factor" as T.J. puts it remains for these guys as well. Whether sincere in their religious pursuits or not, they will forever be looking over their shoulders, always glancing side to side as a result of their involvement. Even if they have been given a "pass", there's always that young loose canon vato ready to show his allegiance, isn't there?

TijuanaJailer said...

I believe these three former carnales (Kilroy, Dano and Conejo) have passed through the "eye of the storm".
Once again, A)if these guys are still in the mix, then no one will make a move on them (but with all those who have "rolled" since Kilroy, Dano and Conejo invoked their "diplomatic immunity", LE would have already learned that these guys were still active members).
B)Assuming then that these guys are legitimately "estranged" from their first love (La EME), then they either have big time huevos to remain "close to home" and exposed to a "loose cannon" or are protected by One who is much more powerful than any organization.... or both!
If they are being protected by Angels, then shame on the person or people who touches these guys.

What a dichotomy! To be in the same communities preaching the Gospel alongside the evil that is being spread!
They are obviously not perceived as a threat to EME and I doubt that these guys are hiding from anyone yet their street wisdom will always assist them as well.
They have an alternative route and that is to leave L.A. to parts unknown. They have chosen not to take that route.
If the EME didn't move on them while they were around, do you seriously believe that they would choose to open a can of worms by going after their families if they were not around? Not.
....and, as we cover these types of subjects (EME unwritten rules) people should know that AS A GENERAL RULE only, the EME does not target law enforcement, families of their enemies (sometimes they will go after an adult male family member), innocent people not involved in the mix and prefer to isolate their targets.
Again, scenarios have occured where these unwritten rules have indeed been violated. In El Monte, gang members employed by the EME to take out a dropout took it on their own to take out an entire family -- women and children included!
The principal, I am happy to add, one Jimmy Palma, was himself killed in San Quentin's Death Row a few years ago by EME for this infraction.

.... and life goes on.

Tijuana Jailer

Anonymous said...

La Eme is not more powerful than God.

Don Quixote said...

Thanks all for the good comments and thought.I hear about the old "High Power" Veteranos and comments about how they had maybe changed thier lifestyles and attitudes. I hope that it's the case,and I know some some old carnals myself who are preaching the Lord. I think some are sincere and others,"maybe?". I would like to reprint a comment I posted from a while back "Death of A Southern Soldier" as I think it may be food for thought. I will post another comment later on where I can rant!
"hey Wally, your post on the passing of "Robot" took me back to memory lane. It was nice to hear that he made his peace before the end. Robot and I were not close friends but more like contemporaries, fellow travelers so to speak. The old dicho "but for the grace of God go I" is an appropriate way to describe my luck or fortune and his. My first impression of Robot took place about 1955 0r 56 during a football game between "us guys' from the Times Boys Club (mostly peewee's from Clover) and a team from Hazard Playground. I took a look at those guys (we were all between 10 and 13 years old), and remember thinking "what a bunch of tough looking guys", they all had tatoos and scars except for Robot who was very clean looking and well spoken for his age, he was the obvious leader of their team,and a natural born politician even then. Our neiborhoods were bitter enemies but the game went off smoothly, we won easily but they ,because of Robot(he chatted up our coaches like an adult,and they were impressed)they won respect. I ran into Robot next at Lincoln High School,1960,1961,and at the time every neighborhood had it's own place on the campus, "Happy Valley",around the cafeteria along with "Rose Hill", "Clover" had the grass hill at the entrance, "Avenues",by the Auditorium, "Frogtown,Riverside Dr." and "Flats",by the nutrition stand,"Alpine,"Dogtown" wver there etc; etc;. "Big Hazard" had the malt shop accross the street. I can say in retrospect that they had an impressive crew that could do some damage when it came to chingasos. Robot as before seemed kind of above it all, involved but at the sametime seemed to see the bigger picture. Our paths crossed again at an LA County Detention Camp, when I arrived Robot was already there and had things organized for himself, he knew the movida there and worked everybody for his benefit,Chicano's from all the varrios, blacks, paddy's the people in charge. He had a special kind of charisma, well spoken,knew which way the wind was blowing and took advantage of all situations deemed favorable. I ran into Robot once in a while after I was released, El Monte Legion Stadium Dances, party here or there,one time scoring some weed in the Rose Hill Projects, and he still had that"under control" politcal guy,who could and did go into any varrio for business or pleasure(a very rare thing in those days).Our paths crossed again at a Ca. Youth Authority facility and Robot was there and still the master manipulator and political person although now we were in a strict "gladiator school" invironment. We had learne all the movidas from the neighborhood and juvie "Veterano's" at a young age, and here it was in full flower, "never be a dedo or snitch", "show no sign of weakness or compassion",attack on one Chicano was an attack on all",somebody made a homosexual advance or even a suggestion and it was immediate retaliation or you were the punk","even though you knew a black guy from school or the neighborhood you did'nt sit together to talk",standing and talking briefly was maybe ok but you had to watch it. All kinds of rules, codes,to live by were in place and Robot was a kind of "Inquisitor" boss who knew all the movidas and if and infraction called for verbal counseling,chaqueta or leva or worse. He was very ambitious now and gaining allies and huge respect.
My life and attitudes changed and I became a pretty normal working family man and taxpayer, but I still heard about Robot now and then (Chicano Daily NEws), I was told he stabbed some guy to death in San Quentin (shoe wars?) but I was sure he was hooked up and probably management material as was typical of him. It's funny but sometimes the old hoodlums and old tough retired cop's hit it off and talk about the old times and laugh like hell. Such was the case as an old retired cop and I were telling war stories one time in the 80's and he asked me if I knew Robot. I told him I did and he informed me that Robot was definately upper echelon with the carnals. I said I wasn't surprised as he was always smart and ambitious and if he had to live in that ocean he might as well be a shark. The cop then told me a story about Robot told to him by a snitch. "A couple of years back when he was on the street Robot took a couple of soldiers, including the rata, to a nightclub in El Sereno. He told these guys to go in and waste two guys he described inside at a table. The soldiers did as requested, blasting these two guys in the back of the head, but as they got back into the car and were questioned by Robot, it became clear they had shot to death two innocent guys just having a beer. The old cop laughs and tells me "you want to know what Robot said?" He said "Fuck it we'll get the right guys later". Life is full of funny turns and surprises, Robot with the right luck probably could have been a positive leader in the community, he certainly had all the attributes and intelligence to do just that.
Adios old camarada and I hope you made your peace with your maker. RIP

StillNoScript said...

Don Quixote, that was a great post. It was like reading the entire movie, "American Me". (Perhaps the real version?)

And, I'm glad you've found serenity, and hope your future continues to peaceful.

P.S. On a less serious note; If I ever go to a nightclub in El Sereno, I'll be sure to sit where I can see everything.

Anonymous said...

Yeah, nice story...I'm sure that those two innocent victims families think its funny, too.

Anonymous said...

It was their time to go... sad, but people die everyday, get over it!

Anonymous said...

Did Victory Outreach start in San Jo? I used to see all kinds of vatos up north joining Victory Outreach but not anymore. There'd often be a house in the hood with a big VO flag/banner and a gang of locos out in front. I don't see that anymore. Did the sur take over the church? If so, that answers your questions about some of the dropouts sincerity. Does anyone know of VO chapters run by ex NF members? The blacks like to say preachers aint nuttin but old pimps anyways. And I've read countless articles on the pimping of ex cons by VO!

Anonymous said...

Go to a V.O. church and see they are all over San Jose has one of the biggest ones. Theres a lot of ex NF pastors up there. Better yet next month in Long Beach and the sports reana is their world conference ALL those vatos will be there, and they have body guards.

Anonymous said...

Jesus didn't have bodyguards.

Pelon, if it was your daughter or son, would you just get over it because thats life?

Anonymous said...

Stop posting stupid comments BUDDY!you know what a BUDDY is right?you dont PELON? well let me tellya!!!A BUDDY is a person that would go all the way to downtown for you,and get a hooker,and get his dick sucked,then come back and suck yours!! so on that note,
THANKS BUDDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

berge said...

Around 1973 a guy came out here from New York. His name was Sonny Arguinzonni. He was intent on replicating the ministry of his pastor inn New York; a guy by the name of David Wilkerson. Wilkerson had a ministry to the gangs in New York City. Sonny was a thug and David would talk to him often, trying to get Sonny to put down his knife (a switchblade) and embrace the teachings of Christ. In 1973, I had just been released from TS, having gone back down from Tracy to finish my time. A girl I met while locked up, invited me to a rally at the Ontario National Guard Armory. That is where I first saw and heard Sonny preach. By the way, the girl and I got married and I now have three wonderful kids. The girl and I were divorced after 13 years of marriage. As I recall, Sonny was a bit awkward in his delivery but over time, he gained confidence and built a successful ministry... V.O. He also wrote his first book around that time; "The Cross and the Switchblade."
Redemption comes in many ways in this life. Some find it in religion, others by finding themselves.

StillNoScript said...

Death is made light of all the time on this blog.

The story of the two innoncent bystanders in El Sereno was told to don quixote by a COP! It's out of anyone here's control.

Nobody really thinks it's funny. Yes, I said that if I was ever in a club in El Sereno I would watch my back. I don't think that was too taboo.

But for what it's worth, I'm sorry to the families and frinds of the two guys that died. It was a horrible incident; Like Nicole Brown Simpson, like Laci Peterson, or anyone else who was murdered unjustly.

Anonymous said...

Sorry homie... I don't have kids... it's part of nature for people to die (everyday), and believe it or not, you will die too =o). Call me what you want, but Marcus Aurelius the great emperor of days gone past could probably explain it best... pick up his book and read for yourself. For another great story on human suffering and people killing other people, check out this link...
It touches on The SHU in Pelican Bay, mostly about a trial for members of the AB.
And to you's that made comments on me, I don't take it personal (especially when you choose to remain anonymous), I understand that you're dealing with your own issues =o)... how could that possibly alter the way I feel about myself, for future reference... it may be wiser to keep your poison (got that from The Four Agreements, good book).
Shit, honestly... I understand this is a "blog", but a lot of you fools really do speak on too much that don't concern you... I'm trying to understand what it is that gives you the urge to speak on these people and things!?!? If you're trying to get credit, or make people think like "Whoa, this Anonymous guy really knows people"... why not put your name and what neighborhood your from, at least then you'd have more of an Identity. Is it because of fear? Or is that what you're doing is so shameful that you can't do such a thing?
Didn't mean to come off as their life had no value... just stating reality. It's sad, but the truth... do you really sit and mope with your head down for every innocent person who dies, or is it just a thought in your mind "like thats f*d up", and then you continue on living? Come on man, haha... get over it! Even if it were my son or daughter... of course It would hurt, but I don't expect everyone in the world to grieve with me, or even care... it's the way life is!
Pelon... Pacoima (SFV)

Anonymous said...

Another Article, you hear about this...,1,100287.story?coll=la-editions-valley

Anonymous said...

Pelon, Your psuedo intellectual BS would go alot further if it was your son or daughter who was killed. I wouldn't expect the world to grieve with me either but I would have surely tried to make the responsible party's family grieve. As for where im from or who I am, that don't matter. Im not on the internet to gangbang. Im here to learn.

Anonymous said...

since you don't have kids, you really have no right to say what you'd do or how you'd feel if it was your child.

StillNoScript said...

Can we stop with all of the, 'if it was your kids...' stuff? This is a blog open to the entire world.

Of course death is horrlibe. Of course pelon or myself would have a hard time making light of death if someone close to us had died. It's rhetorical nonsense to even ask someone how they would feel if they knew someone who died.

When someone tells an O.J. joke, do you stonewall them and ask them how they would feel if it was their daughter that got butchered by the Juice? I doubt it.

So lighten up. Death is horrible. We all feel for those that are affected by untimely, unjust deaths; But, every know and then, an off colored joke is going to be cracked. It's human nature. It's part of how we deal with the fear of death. And when your on a blog full of ex cops and ex gang bangers, your going to get a few cracks like that. It's par for the course.

Don Quixote said...

I am pleased some of you enjoyed my post,and even if some of you didn't I am pleased it got a reaction because that means people are thinking and concious of what's going on in our world. I"m sorry if I left the impression that the old cop and I thought these two innocent victims who were killed for nothing but bad circumstance was funny, it was not. We laughed to keep from crying and also because of the irony of Robots life which was one of being gifted with a natural born intelligence, guile, ambition,survival,and aquisition of power,consolidation and growth, use of this power for dark purposes, then "hopefully" regret and redemption. It's a classic story as old as mankind and I think the old school carnals that have now seen the light can identify with the story. And hopefully these ex "mero jefes" who survive can use their natural god given talents to enlighten and educate the whole community of the human race.

Anonymous said...

Your nickle and dime psychology will get you nowhere.

Anonymous said...

You sound like a blue-bandana clad homie who drives up alongside a vehicle and queries: "Orale, Homes. Where are you from, ese?"
Do you really think that by challenging someone's macho that they are suddenly going to want to identify themselves?
Grow up, homes. Part of the fun of being on this site is to exchange info "anonymously", whatever their reasons may be for not identifying oneself.
So lighten up, learn something (if you wish) and if you don't want to learn then let the others do their thing.
Orale homes, I'm driving away. Please don't shoot.

Mr. Anonymous con el Bullet Proof Vest

Anonymous said...

( @ ) ( @ )<--SUCK ON A NIPPLE!!!

Anonymous said...

It do't matter if they are some one who rides up and calls out "where you from" that is what it is... It has been and will be.. Por Vida. The thing is that cat is a DO and it dont really matter as far as most folks are concerend. Just let the dude do his trip and hope he don't get wacked. I hope some one can get bye and not get got..
But he has his own demons...
Palm Hall

el montero said...

I might be mistaken but when I was in and out of Central, LP, and Wayside juvenil (74 to 79) I read "The cross and the swithblade" as well as "Run baby run" and I beleive Nicky Cruz, another gangmember from NY was the author of those books and not Sonny A. as mentioned earlier.I may be wrong cause I was known to mess with that "cucuy dust" back in the day.

buddaman said...

Nah , your right hommie . Nicky Cruz wrote The Cross and the Switchblade , I don't know about the other one.

Anonymous said...

I do believe even hard core Prison gang menbers have some sense of respect for God..Mexican culture is strong in that aspect..With Love, Los Angeles Resident.

Astrologer said...

Anonymous said...
Did Victory Outreach start in San Jo? I used to see all kinds of vatos up north joining Victory Outreach but not anymore. There'd often be a house in the hood with a big VO flag/banner and a gang of locos out in front. I don't see that anymore. Did the sur take over the church? If so, that answers your questions about some of the dropouts sincerity. Does anyone know of VO chapters run by ex NF members? The blacks like to say preachers aint nuttin but old pimps anyways. And I've read countless articles on the pimping of ex cons by VO!

A Letter to Sonny Arguinzoni about the San Francisco Victory Outreach
July 12, 1996
By Brent and Darlene Saupe
Dear Pastor Sonny:

My name is Brent O. Saupe. I have been a member of Victory Outreach San Francisco for a little over four years now. I have been a leader here for the last three years. My wife Darlene has been a member for the last six years. She has also been a leader for more than three years. We met in Victory Outreach San Francisco. The purpose of this letter is to inform you of problems in San Francisco. This last Sunday was the last Victory Outreach service we will attend. We are going to another church. The reasons are numerous, but I will try to be as concise as possible so as not to take too much of your time.

We started thinking and praying about leaving our church over a year ago on April 29th. This was our wedding day. Pastor Carlos told us to change the date of our wedding because there was a "Cinco De Mayo" festival in the city that day. His intentions were to have the church go to the streets. We told him that our families had already made their plans for that date. There were also a lot of other arrangements that were made for that date (e.g. hall, church rental, caterers, invitations etc.). When Pastor Carlos found out that we would not be changing the date, he told the congregation that no one could go to the wedding. He wanted all the church on the streets that day. My family as well as myself were shocked by this announcement. A wedding has always been a special event in churches (my family is mostly Christian) and the reason for this was not understood.

From that time on we have been praying about this situation. We have sought council from different sources. Some said to write you at that time. The majority, including our church elders, said just to forget it. I was told that you already know of the situation here and so do the Elders of Victory Outreach. God is in control and even though they were all aware of the problems with Pastor Carlos, they were just waiting for God to move. In San Francisco the prayer is that Pastor Carlos be changed or removed. He is still here. And in my insider's opinion, getting further and further from the Biblical example of what a pastor should be.

After conference we knew we would be leaving Victory Outreach. After all the powerful speakers and even some good classes, Pastor Carlos has continued to become worse. Over the past few months the congregation and I have witnessed more worldliness, lying and hypocrisy from behind the pulpit than should ever be allowed. When it comes to finances Pastor Carlos is lacking the accountability with the congregation to avoid unnecessary scrutiny.

A common problem for the leadership is the need to explain Pastor Carlos' extravagant lifestyle. I don't know how much you know of this so I will tell you what I know. Pastor Carlos has a BMW, his wife has a minivan, his unemployed son has a BMW, and his daughter has a newer car as well. His family wears designer clothes exclusively and every member of his family has gold chains and at least one diamond ring each. At the recent Rosarito retreat Pastor Carlos showed off what he claimed was a "$30,000 Rolex". As he passed it around the car I looked at it closely. It had diamonds around it and looked real. Pastor said that he doesn't go for the "cheap stuff". In his home he has a "big screen" TV and white leather couches.

The reason I shared the above with you is to give you a little background of how Pastor Carlos appears to the congregation. On more than three occasions before he collected the offering he has stated "you are not giving to me. I don't get any of this money. I don't even get a paycheck from the church." I am completely unaware of how much a pastor does or should earn. But I know that something is due the pastor for his labors. If indeed Pastor Carlos doesn't receive anything from the church he should. If he does than he has lied repeatedly from behind the pulpit.

He is also teaching from behind the pulpit that the reason he has all the things that he has is because he has been so faithful in his giving. A "give to receive" message is preached before offering almost every time he is the one collecting it.

Pastor consistently comes into service over an hour after the service has started. Sometimes it is obvious that the worship leader is struggling to continue until he arrives. Many of our new visitors leave after such a long time of worship. When he does come in, he is known to rebuke the congregation for not praising enough or loud enough. We are told that if we don't shout we don't love the Lord.

Often he uses scripture out of context to get his point across. His point has more and more been submission and obedience. He has claimed to be on the same level as Moses and has gone so far as to say that if we disobey him, we are disobeying God. A time of downgrading the leadership before the congregation plays an important part of the messages we hear from behind the pulpit. A leadership position is not a coveted position to most members. In fact it is getting to where no one even wants to serve in any capacity. During our recent event a few of our members have mentioned to me that Pastor Carlos was acting like a "spiritual pimp". It has become a burden to serve the Lord here. For the most part any service going on is out of compulsion and not willingness.

My wife and I waited until after the event to tell Pastor Carlos of our decision to change churches. We didn't want to cause any undo problems before the event. We served even until the end of our last service--as ushers at the event and at church. After our final service I told Pastor Carlos of our decision. He told me I was wrong for leaving and that if I left I would leave "not with a blessing but with a curse". He also accused me of trying to take my wife out of church. He said that he was the one to allow me to marry Darlene (He said God also). He told me that the only reason for leaving was that I was disobedient and couldn't take a rebuke. My wife and I have been leaders for over three years. Obviously we can take a rebuke, or we would have left long ago. If I were disobedient I would not have submitted to all that has been going on for so long.

It is obvious to us that we need to get out from under the bondage of this church and that is what we are doing. Our concern is for those who are still in Victory Outreach San Francisco. Over the years we have built strong and lasting friendships with the people here. It is a hard thing to leave. There are a lot of loving people here who love the Lord and want to serve Him. They are going through the same things that we have gone through. Serving the Lord should at times be a joyful thing. There is a shortage of real joy in Victory Outreach of San Francisco.

After telling Pastor Carlos of our decision we waited two days to tell anyone else. We first called the head usher to have our names taken off the calendar and be replaced. Then we called the head of the Children's Church to be replaced on the Sunday school schedule. The same evening Pastor Carlos called my home. He told me not to talk to anyone from his church. He said that he would tell them what had happened. Knowing how he has handled people who have left in the past I expressed how we left on good terms. I told him that we have done nothing wrong. He told me that if I talked to anyone from his church that he would come to my house and correct me personally. He didn't stop yelling through the phone to hear anything I was telling him. He said numerous times that he didn't care what I thought and to just go, get out of his church. Pastor Carlos was acting like a regular worldly thug over the phone. This has confirmed to me that the decision to leave is the right one.

Which again--leaves those who are still there. I don't know how much of this stuff you have heard before, but this is a serious problem. I will no longer have to deal with it. But those who are still there are being spiritually destroyed. I have seen hundreds of people get saved and on fire over the last few years. I have also seen them crushed by a man who has no love, no compassion, and no conviction through it all.

The impression of Christianity that people see when they come to V.O.S.F. could very well drive them away from Christ for good. We as a couple who love the Lord and want to serve Him have been driven away. Not from the Lord, but from Victory Outreach. Please do something to help out those who are still there.

Thank you for your time,

Brother Brent and Sister Darlene

Note: It seems Pastor Sonny Arguinzoni is personally aware of the problems within Victory Outreach of San Francisco. Should it be concluded that by allowing such things to continue he condones this type of behavior by Victory Outreach leadership?

This story was made available with the permission of "Victory Outreach Survivors"

Astrologer said...

Victory Outreach--founded by Sonny Arguinzoni

By Peter Belaustegui
I was a Pastor in what I believe is an authoritarian and abusive organization. I was with this group for approximately 11 years. I was one of those who tried to stick it out and bring about change in the organization—a big mistake, you know how the story goes. I became a rebel and disloyal etc., in their eyes and I was finally so hurt, wounded, and fed up with what I experienced that that along with the full support of the leadership in our church we pulled our church out of the organization and found out their even deeper abusive character. I was undermined and discredited by them to the point that I knew that I could no longer continue to minister (I will explain that a little later) I moved myself and family to get away and rest.

The ministry in question is Victory Outreach Ministries International, founded by Sonny Arguinzoni in 1967 in Los Angeles California. He is an ordained minister of the Assemblies of God. Victory Outreach is a ministry that exclusively reaches out to drug addicts and gang members. Of all the street type ministries I would say that Victory Outreach appears to be the most legitimate on the outside. which I believe makes them the most dangerous.

Here are some of the problems that I see with this organization:

The very foundation of Victory Outreach is not Jesus Christ but Sonny Arguinzoni and his vision. He bases his ministry on a vision and a promise that he says "God" gave to him. He claims that in 1967 "God spoke" to him and told him to start a church in East Los Angeles and that God promised him that He would fill it up with drug addicts, gang members, and the rejects of society. He claims that God gave him Isaiah 45:2-3 as his promise for the fulfillment of this vision "And I will give you the reasures out of darkness" Sonny Arguinzoni claims that the drug addicts, gang members, and the rejects of society that his organization reaches are those "treasures out of darkness."

This is a blatant misquote and misuse of scripture. Sonny Arguinzoni also claims that God promised him that He was going to raise up a ministry filled with the rejects of society that was going to expand around the world and that it would blow Sonny Arguinzoni’s mind and the minds of the whole world. The gospel is rarely actually preached in Victory Outreach—but scripture is used to help promote Sonny Arguinzoni’s vision. This organization wins people to Sonny Arguinzoni and his Victory Outreach organization—teaches them unquestioned obedience and loyalty not to Jesus Christ but to men.

The misuse and the twisting of scripture to control and manipulate people into submitting their lives and finances to the vision of the Victory Outreach organization. Most of the ministers have very little secular or biblical education and have little understanding of the historic orthodox teachings of Christianity. Most of them came from a drug addict and/or gang member background and often have brought this mentality into their ministries. The emphasis, as with most of the Victory Outreach teachings, is performance—oriented toward getting people to jump on the bandwagon of Pastor Sonny’s world vision and not on Jesus Christ. In Victory Outreach what is important—is what you do, not in what you become.

An out of balance focus on Pastor Sonny’s world vision to "TAKE THE INNER CITIES OF THE WORLD FOR JESUS". I believe he thinks that he and the Victory Outreach Ministries that he controls are God’s chosen end time army to accomplish this. He says of himself "MY MIDDLE NAME IS VISION, I EAT VISION, I SLEEP VISION, I DREAM VISION, I AM VISION." The whole organization revolves around Pastor Sonny and his vision. It is the focus of everything we did and tried to accomplish as ministers, it is the focus of every Victory Outreach conference and event. The latest vision prior to my leaving—that Pastor Sonny and his elders laid on us—is the vision to have 1,000 churches by the year 2000. The way they came up with this vision was by sitting around talking about vision and getting high and loaded on the Holy Ghost.

People are being used and not served in this organization. People are seen as commodities to promote their vision through the giving of their FINANCES and their TOTAL COMMITMENT to

Pastor Sonny’s cause. One of his schemes is to get everyone (and he means everyone) in the Victory Outreach organization to commit themselves to the giving of a dollar a day to finance his 1,000 churches by the year 2000 thrust. He calls it "UNITED WE CAN" and if you’re not part of it then you don’t have the vision and you are uncommitted etc. He says to those who are not united we can members—"THAT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH YOU IF YOU CANNOT GIVE A DOLLAR A DAY." He says that he received this plan and vision from God in a hotel room while crying before the Lord about how to finance his world vision.

The financial pressure that the Pastor’s of Victory Outreach are put under is unbearable. Let me quote to you a portion of my letter of resignation (which I have enclosed) to Pastor Sonny:

"In regards to the financial pressure that is put on the Pastor’s of Victory Outreach I would like to show you by using my own church how out of balance this is using figures from my 1995 budget;

$6,057.00 - Tithes to corp. Office - mandatory
$5,000.00 - Corp. Building fund - mandatory
$4,000.00 - 1995 world conference - mandatory
$1,500.00 - U.W.C. - not mandatory but expected
$1,200.00 - Yr. Ministers license fees - mandatory
$1,200.00 - Men’s rehab. home fees - mandatory
$635.00 - Misc. - mandatory
$625.00 - 1995 youth conference - mandatory
$450.00 - Women’s rehab. Fees - mandatory
TOTAL = $21,467.00 - from our 1995 budget went to the Victory Outreach Corp. offices

Mandatory required giving that I believe s is wrong!

The live-in rehabilitation homes of Victory Outreach are nothing more than indoctrination centers and are unbiblical. The residents are required to give up their total freedom for a one year period of time where they [may] ... not be allowed to leave, use the phone, do any of the normal things in life that are done, without strict and tightly regulated permission of the leadership. Total unquestioned obedience and loyalty to leadership is a major emphasis taught in these homes. Many of the Director’s of these home is total dictator’s not servants. The rehabilitation homes are exploiting the residents by their constant fund raising efforts of car wash projects, lawn care, hauling and moving, selling pancake breakfast tickets and rally tickets in shopping centers and parking lots. Residents of these homes are often shipped city to city, even state to state to help out as financial fund raisers for major Victory Outreach events. The Pastors of Victory Outreach use the rehabilitation homes many times as their major financial fund raising tool to finance their many events. Much spiritual abuse takes place in the

controlled environment of these rehabilitation homes.

The introduction for the first time of the word of faith teachers at the 1995 world conference at the Long Beach Convention Center. Marilyn Hickey spoke to the women of Victory Outreach in a special women only session and Morris Cerullo Spoke at an evening session—this was one of the biggest shows and put-ons that I have ever witnessed—especially at the altar call when he began literally hitting people in the foreheads to make them fall to be slain in the Spirit.

Note: All of the evening sessions at the Victory Outreach world conferences air on T.B.N. and on "All American TV Inc."—Pastor Sonny and Nicky Cruz are President and Vice President of "All American TV" and broadcast most of the TBN programming.

Several years ago we also had R.W. Shammback at one of our conferences and he put on quite a show of fake healings. Pastor Sonny has had John Avanzini several times at the mother church to teach on finances as well. Sonny uses the big name preachers at the evening sessions of his conferences to legitimize his ministry, while at the morning sessions of these conferences he uses his own men who put these preaches down and indoctrinate Victory Outreach members.

A hierarchical form of church government, starting from Pastor Sonny on down to the local Pastors. The Pastors of Victory Outreach have total control of their local churches and the Corporate

Leadership has total control of the Pastors. At the local church level I know of no Victory Outreach

Churches that have any kind of boards or committees that keep the Pastors in check. Some say that it seems that "THE PASTORS OF VICTORY OUTREACH ARE TOTAL DICTATORS." The Pastors of Victory Outreach are free to run their churches as they see fit as long as it stays in line with Pastor Sonny’s agenda and vision. At the Corporate level there is a board of directors as required by law. Otherwise, I seriously doubt that they would have one. It seems to me that the men that Pastor Sonny has on his board and calls his elders are simply "yes men"—who will give a rubber stamp of approval to his plans.

It is not clear and is deceptive how the corporate structure of Victory Outreach and its local churches fit into that structure. All of the local Victory Outreach churches that I know of are under the

umbrella of the Victory Outreach Ministries International Corporation (they are not incorporated at the local level as say with the Calvary Chapels), but they are considered separate entities under that corporate structure and they are each financially independent and are responsible for their own liabilities. The Corporation is set up in such a way as to protect itself from any liabilities at the local church level.

The Victory Outreach Corporation had never at any time invested even one cent into the church that I pastored but they did pull thousands of dollars out of it as with the other churches as well. While with Victory Outreach I was never given a copy of the Corporate bylaws nor did I ever hear it even discussed at any time. They seem to know their corporate structure well—but we sure didn’t. I suggested in a conversation after I had left, to Pastor Sonny’s second in command Elder Saul Garcia (who runs the Victory Outreach Corporate offices), that maybe it would be a good idea to inform their Pastors of the Corporate Bylaws and structure—so that Pastors who are considering leaving the organization would know and understand the very structure that they are under. This was not well-received and Mr. Garcia’s only defense was—that he had never read all the Corporate Bylaws himself. He then tried to convince me that because I was hurt I was imagining things and that I couldn’t see things in proper perspective. He then proceeded to vent his full anger at me.

The Victory Outreach Leadership and Corporate Structure is abusive and knows how to take advantage of people in situations such as mine. They know very well what they are doing and how to play the game—but you don’t. We were always told that we were "free to leave the organization at any time".

However, if you do leave the Victory Outreach organization, they [may], without your knowledge, lay claim to all properties, assets, and equipment that you have acquired.

I mean this literally—they will contact your landlords, leaseholders, banks etc. and claim everything as their property and discredit you to your business associates. They even went so far as to go to the Post office and try getting a key made for my mailbox in an industrial park. Fortunately, the postal clerk knew me and told me what was going on. Not only this but by direct orders from the eldership they sent people uninvited to our church services to pull people away, they had people planted in some of my services and even waited in the parking lot to catch people as they left. Then they organized meetings to pass along misleading information and to discredit me. Once they had a little core group formed of angry people, they organized those poor deceived people into starting a new Victory Outreach church because and I quote Elder Ed Morales—"ONCE VICTORY OUTREACH ENTERS A CITY WE WILL NEVER LEAVE THAT CITY" Isn’t this the typical drug addict, gang member’s mentality and response? This same scenario has happened to countless ex-Victory Outreach ministers.

I paid off any debts that I had incurred while with Victory Outreach upon leaving and I left them with no financial or any other liabilities. I had an unblemished financial testimony in my city and I have all of the records to prove the amounts of money that they pulled out of my church and the financial testimony that I maintained. We recorded the service the Sunday that we announced to our church that we were pulling out of the Victory Outreach Ministries Organization. We did it with love, compassion, and integrity.

I want people to know this—I never did anything while associated with the Victory Outreach Ministries that warranted pulling my ministerial credentials and I resigned. I was never in any kind of official trouble with the organization, nor was I ever disciplined by them in any way. My problems with them began because I started to challenge some abusive things that had happened to me through the man that was supposed to be my Pastor—and also because of things that I saw in the organization itself. Prior to leaving Victory Outreach I sought out godly advice and council from several well-known Christian leaders and experts in the are of spiritual abuse. In fact once such expert after listening to a tape I sent him by Elder Ed Morales and said—"that it were me I would run for the hills". I also spoke to the Foursquare and the Calvary Chapel Pastors in my local city and many others. I didn’t make some off the wall quick decision about leaving Victory Outreach—I agonized over it for about three years. I am not just some disgruntled Saint with an axe to grind.

Frankly, it’s a miracle that I am even able to tell what happened or still care about the many other people in similar circumstances—because I left the ministry so spiritually, emotionally, and physically devastated that I didn’t even think I would survive. But I believe that the Lord is showing me now that it was not all in vain and that He has given me some wisdom and insight into the subject of spiritual abuse and that I can help many people by telling my story. I do not feel it’s right to just sit back, lick my wounds and do nothing to help others that may be trapped in abusive churches and organizations.

Victory Outreach may have the outward appearance of success and recognition for its work with drug addicts and gang members—but I believe that many people are being fooled, deceived and destroyed by this ministry. It may be a great shock to many people to find out about the real inner workings of this ministry. I’m sure many people will simply choose not to believe it. if things are ever brought into the light. But the sad truth is that many denominations, organizations, and movements may seem genuine and have all the appearance of success outwardly (as the Pharisees did), but on the inside they are filled with greed and corruption. One thing that I have learned is that God does not judge success the way men judge success. What the world may view as successful may be an abomination to the Lord (Luke 16:15).

Once before leaving I confronted a Victory Outreach pastor about abusing his authority and using his congregation as a means to promote and finance his own agenda and vision. His reply was—"BUT LOOK AT THE SUCCESS OF MY CHURCH, ALL THE PEOPLE, THE PROGRAMS, THE PROPERTIES, THIS IS THE EVIDENCE OF GOD’S BLESSING ON MY LIFE AND MINISTRY." If this is the criteria for judging success in the Kingdom of God then I must conclude that the Jehovah’s Witnesses and the Mormon’s must be a "success" in God’s eyes as well. It seems to me that true success should be, are our lives transformed in the image of Christ. This is the fruit of the Spirit evident in our lives. Christ-like behavior, conduct and walking in God’s will as revealed in scripture. I believe that there is often an over emphasis on outward material things as the evidence of "success"—proof of God’s supposed blessing on many of the ministries that are abusing people today.

I am certainly not without fault and only a victim. I have in the past used some of the same manipulative and abusive tactics in my former ministry while associated with Victory Outreach. I followed after and used what was taught to me. That was all I knew at the time, but by God’s grace I was able to recognize those errors, things that were wrong in my own life and I repented of them some time ago. I hope that this information may give readers a little insight into the Victory Outreach organization.

Copyright © Rick Ross

Anna said...

ok i have a problem with all that was said in the last comment. First of all, The homes have a lot of freedom to do what they want. There are a few rules that need to be followed because its a rehab home such as monitored phone calls and mandatory prayer and bible studies and church attendance. But to say that they are not allowed to leave or use the phone is not true. Im 18 years old and i have lived in one of the homes for 3 years. i went to live with my mother who was living there when i was 14. Now we live in a home owned by my pastor. Of all the time that i was there i never seen any other the abuse you speak of. Why dont you go to a home and try living there for a while? Maybe you'll change your perspective. The only reason they have monitored phone calls and such is because its a rehab home. the women that come in are trying to get their lives together. Why would we want them to call their connection and get more drugs? We run homes that are to better the lives of others. As for the homes that your talking about. Not all people have the same vision, not all people who say they're Christian are Christians. There are people who are trying to make Victory Outreach look bad but thats their own opinions. Why dont you visit a Victory Outreach church? Get to know the people and see all that God is doin. Why dont you get a hold of the people who are being helped all around the world by United We Can? Why dont you come and visit Victory Outreach El Sereno? Im assured that you will be blown away by all that God is doing and going to do.

Anonymous said...

Just to set things right,David Wilkerson wrote Cross and Swichblade,Nicky wrote run Baby Run and sonnys first book was called Sonny. Just saying.