Saturday, July 16, 2005

On July 8, the Houston Chronicle ran a story about the deportation of LESTER RIVERA PAZ. He's the MARA shot-caller who escaped from a Honduran jail and hot-footed across the border to the U.S. He was caught on February 10 in Falfurrias, Texas after shooting up a busload of innocent civilians around Christmas in Chamelecon, Honduras. PAZ and his crimies executed 28 men, women and children to send a message to the Honduran government that he was stone serious and that LE should back off.

There's been discussion on this site in the past as to whether street gangsters and prison gangs could be considered terrorists. I've maintained they're not. Some disagree and they certainly have strong arguments. There was an interesting exchange in the comments section between STILLNOSCRIPT and TIJUANA JAILER. Worth reading. My point has always been that what separates a gangster from a terrorist is a political agenda and the cold-blooded taking of innocent life.

Street level thuggery like drug taxation, witness intimidation, set tripping and the rest of it is, in one way or another, connected to "business." And the business doesn't involve bringing down a government, changing government policy or taking revenge on innocents in response to political oppression, whether real or imagined.

If everything PAZ is accused of is true, this is one homie that crossed the line into political posturing and wholesale slaughter. In other words, a hybrid gangster who would logically fit into the category of terrorist. Let's hope there aren't a lot more like him out there.


StillNoScript said...

I thought I was seeing things when I saw my screen-name on your journal.

I think the disagreement between my self and T.J. was over the definition of the word, 'terrorist'.

T Jailer insisted that a gang member is a terrorist because they terrorize, simply put.

But what I was getting fired up about was the program that aired on foxnews, right about the time we were all flaming this blog over the gang-terrorist argument, that focused on rather or not gang members should be considered terrorists akin to the terrorists that attacked us on 9/11. That's when I copied and pasted your quote from a year ago; Where you simply made it clear that Al Qaueda's interest is to take out a nation, where as 18th streets, or White Fense, or whatever, has their main interest in drugs and surviving day to day in a poverished urban enviroment.

I actually came to agree with Tijuana Jailer in the sense that yes, a gang member does terrorize his local community, in many cases. Therefore, a 'terrorist' by that definition would be founded.

And, this developing story in S. America raises eyebrows too. It's certainly closer to the kind of terrorism we've come to know on 9/11 than that of a street gang scaring it's neighbors into their houses 24 hours a day.

It's a crazy world out there, and no doubt our military and LE have to keep their eye on potential threats, but I still believe that the very civil rights this nation was founded under are in grave danger if we're going to start thinking that the average homeboy in East Los is connected to Al Qaueda.

Anonymous said...

whatever...IM SORRY but all this use of the word TERRORIST,it really took away the true definition of it,im not even concerned about AL QUEDA or any organization anymore,at one point
when i heard the word TERRORIST,i would get ANGRY,i felt that the world was in danger,that the world had to take a stand,when i heard that FOX CHANNEL putting GANGS and TERRORIST together in one show,it took it to another level,im not really feeling the word TERRORIST anymore,it's like the real meanning has been distorted,it's always easy to point the finger to the lower class,they forget the favor BUSH did for the BIN LADENS,flew them off to safety,after 9/11,that our own GOVERNMENT helped SADDAM at one point,GANGS are GANGS nothing more,
these socalled FOX ANYLISTS are full of crap!O'RIELLY was mad because the BBC would not use the term TERRORIST,but used BOMBER instead,BOMBER is a worst term in EUROPE than TERRORIST,IDIOT!!!He should worry that his own station
is using the word(TERRORIST)loosely!!!That doesn't give the REALL VICTIMS of 9/11 any JUSTICE!

StillNoScript said...

Your absolutely right. But remember what Wally said a year ago, that the word terrorist will just become meaningless if it's used to describe people who really don't fit the identity of the type of terrorist we've come to know since 9/11 and that we're at war with.

The more the neo-con, foxnews types try to morph street gangs with Al Qaueda while using the word, "Terrorist", the more they kill the credibility of the word.

TijuanaJailer said...

It is safe to assume that In The Hat and its disciples, myself included, is in tune with the modern day definition of the word Terrorist.
It is primarily defined thusly:
...and the definition continues:
"...somebody who uses violence or the threat of violence, especially bombing, kidnapping, and assassination, to intimidate, often for political purposes".
In LE circles, there is definitely a distinction between the political terrorist, the organized crime member, the prison gang member, the street gang member, the serial rapist, etc.
They may be kissing cousins since they serve the same master and connections between these groups are indeed inevitable in this nefarious world.
One may categorize, prioritize, specialize or compartmentalize but when the disagreements on semantics and definition are over and done with, I hope we all agree that it comes down to levels of evil.
It is ALL evil and I would prefer that the LE community enjoy the necessary tools -- whether it's the RICO statute (originally intended to combat "traditional" organized crime and not street gangs) or the employment of "terrorist" experts in pursuing "upper level" gang members -- to wage an effective war versus the dark forces that wreak havoc on our planet.
In The Hat brings to the table a unique awareness which allows its readers to "peek" into some of the inner workings of some of these EG's (Evil Groups).
You also have some "in depth" minds who ask the right questions (is there a "right" question?) and I recognize certain experts who know their shit -- both from the LE intelligence perspective to the gentlemen who have "been there and done that" and the interested "layman".
Somewhere in all of this is some meaty stuff. Keep up the good work, Wally, and let's move on.

Peace .....


Anonymous said...

Well I just wanted to make a comment. In no way do I approve of the acts done by these terrorist gangsters as they are called,and maybe they did cross that imagenary line between violence and violence for political purposes, But take into cosideration what is going on down here in Central America. Gangmembers x-gangmembers and anybody tattooed regardless of what neighborhood MS 18 whitefence MAO MAO are being arrested just for having tattoos. This is a new strategy by the government to "stop crime" but it is looking more like a witch hunt nobody is being convicted just harrassed 24/7 now these people are feeling opressed and this how they retaliate. Yes they are taking a stance "violence for political reasons" These guys are actually being terrorist but they are also being driven to this. They are being persecuted causeing them to take a political stance so its not that they are Morphing into terrorist. This is just an isolated event and these guys were driven too so to speak. We all know this is not normal Gang characteristics

Anonymous said...

A Vietnam vet told me yesterday that the Hells Angels offerred to attack americans for the viet cong. has anyone ever heard of this? Seemed kinda far out.

Anonymous said...


Let's just say, the "Definition" as it is applied to "DOMESTIC" terrorism is basically misguided. Too many times, folks get caught up in the "Aura" of domestic terrorism, and confuse that with North vs. Sureno conflicts.

Too many eMe resources are guided like laser to the capitalists gains to be achieved thru illicit trade on the inside and the out's...period.

Youngsters that get caught up in it, are generally naive' to the fact that the business is regional, or territorial conflicts deriving from the almighty dollar. Likewise, many white youths striving to identify with a "Consolidated" group to achieve racial aims, also find themselves thrust into a world of mayhem, prison, and betrayal based upon the "Immediate" protection needs of the AB, NLR or PEN1. "Cause and Effect" is word.

Defining La eMe as "Chicano's" and AB as "Bikers" is too narrow of definition. The HISTORY is much deeper, and so it seems the ends to a means. Satellite factions like NLR seems to suggest that in the broader context, domestic terrorism is not the case. Instead, protection is the focal point once entered into the prison system. Betrayal is the most common form of deaths, inside and out...but it is the protection that forces the issue of being jumped in.

Chicano's and whites have combined in many cases to affirm loyalty to one another. The notion of "White vs. Black" have evaporated as the hispanic growth has evolved in recent years. No longer is the "Threat" to whites or latinos alone. They have come together in some "Symbolic" gesture of unity.

For example:

It is NOT uncommon to see a group of five or six latinos combined with two or three white boys in Orange County. These neighborhoods cast out the "Stereotypical" shrouds that once permiated the O.C. turf.

Secondly, it is EQUALLY common to see BLACKS and LATINO'S at odds in places like "JEFFERSON HIGH" that dispels the "MYTH" of BLACK/HISPANIC unity in Los Angeles that has dominated the depths of social economics since the days of the "Zoot-Suit" riots.

One can suppose, that domestic terrorism is spawned by fanactical factions by any of the races, that are at war with the government.

However, one can equate the violence of 50-60 years ago to that of the riots that reigned terror of once highly held alliances that simply no longer exist. Our definition has changed, and no longer can you define it by old alliances.

Neighborhoods, that were once BLACK are now HISPANIC. Neighborhoods that were ONCE WHITE, are mixed with hard laboring hispanics that identify with better education for the children. Orange County is example.

In an "ERA" where it was OK, to force BUS INTEGRATION, and WHITE FLIGHT, it is now common for these forces to have come together, and reject the notion of domestic terrorism. These youngsters are different from years previously noting that whites and hispanics are more closely aligned in childhood.

True, Whites remain, and Blacks, are being displaced by hispanic families, but HISPANICS are quickly becoming the majority.

Predominately "Catholic" these new immigrants, and children are welcomed by the hard work they do.

BLACK Communities resent this ethnic
based influx of migrant influences,
and thus find themselves in a precarious position of negotiation.

What was "ONCE" Black dominated old white communities, are now peppered with "Foreign" Catholic kids speaking foreign mixed "Spanglish" that neither fosters good will, or inhibits growth amongst black communities. Black communities are diminishing..and so is the political power that came along with it.

Move 40 miles south, (Sureno) and you find Orange, and San Diego Counties that have remnants of white flight, and "Newcomers" children from Michigan, Ohio, Oklahoma, Nebraska and New York...relatively wealthy and prosperous moving into neighborhoods "Mixed" with surenos..
who have lived here for generations.

They speak native tongue, and English and there you have a formation of "NLR" ---> PEN1 and other mixed groups united against the "Old Ways" of neighborhoods.

WW-II Brought the majority of blacks to the Southern California area. The subsequent "ZOOT-SUIT" riots brought the blacks and hispanics together.

Gone forever are those days, for it is with deep resent that blacks are now finding "Co-Existence" with latino's is increasingly difficult.

La eMe and AB are "CAPITALIST" not so much "ETHNIC" allies. Atmosphere has changed. Domestic Terrorism is the wierd teachings of "FANATICS"
That preach HATRED. You rarely will find "Christians" both protestant and Catholic taking part in acts of aggression against families of Americans. Only the "NATION OF ISLAM" finds domestic allies, in a war against innocent families.

Black individuals are prone to this faction, and rarely will you find hispanic, asian, or whites remotely warm to the idea. Black factions are the predominant factor considered.

Domestic terrorism has many definitions..but generally, not found amongst "Christian" peoples,
Asian, Black, Hispanic or white.

Anonymous said...

blacks white and hispanis need to come 2gether unity white chuloes and mex uknow

Anonymous said...

When I was served my Street Terrorist Papers by the FBI back in the early 90s I didn't for one second see the language as coincidental.

Gang members are gradually being redefined in Military and eventually LE circles as terrorists.

This augmented characterization of gangs is going to serve to implement stricter immigration policies and completely disrupt and dismantle gangs. If you're on the books, get ready for a long, blindfolded trainride to where you'll be living the rest of your life in misery and injustice.

Don't believe me?

Don't get comfortable, times are changing.