Saturday, December 30, 2006

In today's LA TIMES, Sam Quinones has a follow up story on the murder of 14-year-old Cheryl Green, a black teenager shot by a 204 gangster a few weeks ago. It was apparent almost from the beginning that this was one of those murders that the media has, up to now, been reluctant to call by its rightful name -- ethnic cleansing. That seems to be changing as a result of this year's Federal trial against members of the Avenues. As we reported years ago when dicussing the Marco Milla murder of Reginald Hightower in connection to over a dozen other racially motivated homicides the media never covered, Harbor Gateway (aka Shoestring) is no stranger to B-on-B killing.

To underscore the utter ignorance and powerlessness of our politicians, the piquantly coiffured City Councilwoman Janice Hahn wants the city attorney to issue - get ready - a gang injunction. That'll put the fear of god into the shooters. The other thing she wants to do is sue landlords who rent to gang families. This is something she should know is as unconstitional as prohibiting landlords from renting to illegal aliens, drug users, Wiccans, the disbaled, crazy cat ladies or Al-Qaida sympathizers. Who elects these people?

During the time that Bird, Sneaky, Clever, Lucky and Shadow were going around Northeast shooting and harassing blacks, there were three separate gang injunctions in effect against the Avenues. You can see how well that worked out. Note to Janice Hahn: for the sake of your own credibility, please check your history and examine your premise. Lucky was living in a house owned by his parents. So what do you do with gangsters who are homeowners and not renters? Burn down the house and put the family on the street? According to the court testimony in his Federal trial, Lucky was also earning an excellent salary working construction at Vandenberg Air Force base.

With two murders and half a score of shootings, assaults and acts of intimidation to that neighborhood's credit, you have to wonder if this is enough to trigger interest by the US Attorney. The USA did it in Northeast and it may do it again in 204. We'll see.

And true to form, the NAACP has been as silent on this latest murder as it was in the race-motivated murders in Avenues, Compton, Watts, Pacoima, Pomona, Colton, San Berdoo and other neighborhoods. I hate to sound cynical but they're planning a march (bring your own candles) and organizing a display of solidarity. Good luck with that. God forbid they should ever tackle the root of the problem.


Gava Joe said...

Great reference to the "piquantly coiffured" Councilwoman. I'm thinking you do'nt like her style?

StillNoScript said...

The NAACP feels that the root of the problem is systematic racism and poverty, and, in that sense, they are addressing the root of the problem. It's a difference in views, that's all. Doesn't make anyone good or bad. But, as you would agree, it could be the difference between dumber and smarter, as well.

My take is this. I think both your theory and the NAACP's are smart, and correct, if applied with all due consideration to other theories. In other words, I think just cracking down on the Mexican Mafia alone will not work. As many have have pointed out, there are cultural reasons that go back decades as to why Blacks and Mexicans don't get along in Los Angeles, add a dose of poverty and a shit load of guns and drugs to that, and you have a street war between Black and Brown, EME or no EME.

On the same token, it would be stupid for the NAACP to assume that poverty and racism are the only reasons this is going on. As you've pointed out, Lucky from Avenues was far from poverished. He worked construction at a public airport, and if he was union, there's no doubt he made more than some cops.

The NAACP, the police, the commmunity (even a couple of former gangsters), and people like yourself and Sam Quinones all need to come to together with a solution for the problem. I imagine if that day every came, a common solution would come forth and it would probably take us all by surprise. Until then, I think we're all relying on emotionally driven, knee jerk reactions.

StillNoScript said...

And, agreed, Wally. Janice Hahn's a fucking idiot. And, it's good to see you step out against injunctions. They're unconstitutional and they won't work against a real gang, anyway. Real homeboys will toss the injunction papers like a parking ticket and make the police earn their money by continuously having to round them up.

And, it's also interesting to see these so called Democrats put forth solutions that throw the constitution out the window. Reminds me when Clinton went after gangs in the latter part of his presidency. Completely contradicts everything he claimed to have stood for until then. When I say I vote for these guys because they're the lesser of the two evils, I mean it.

Anonymous said...

I read the daily breeze article about this shooting. Which I thought had an interesting side note about one of the suspects (Alcarez) mother and family who emigrated from Mexico.

“Outside court, Alcarez's mother, Irma Torres, said she did not believe her son was responsible.
I don't believe he is a member of a gang," she said in Spanish. "I don't believe he is capable of killing a child."

I have had many conversations with mothers about their kids getting involved with gangs and of course they usually say " No, mi mijo es un buen hijo, el no puedo hacer eso". I tutor students from Belmont High and many are recent illegal immigrants who soon become involved with gangs. And the parents are not equipped to handle this problem or even understand the problem. This is why I think illegal immigration has to be another priority for the federal government.

I remember a few years ago when the small Diamond St gang had their neighbor around the new Belmont high school under siege. Just pobre raza robbing other pobre raza, it took the police a while to take back the neighborhood. What I remember the most was talking to the parents of some gang members arrested and the same story "mi mijo es un buen hijo". I see the older brother (gangster) fucking up the life of the younger family members. It is like a parasite is the house contaminating the rest of the household.

Another article from Daily breeze

This mad Mexican who is a liberal democrat thinks we should have a swift death penalty for these gang pendejos involved in any fatal shooting. If the police get tough on this type of problems the mamas come out screaming “mi pobre mijo lo estan tratando mal”. I understand why the cops just say “fuck them” why should we care.

My solution to so many of these problems is simple education, education, education if you give a person an education it opens up so many opportunities which they could never had imagined. I just look to my brothers and cousins for example of this. But the L.A. schools need to get rid of gangs and yes I am going to say it a majority of illegal immigrants.

Old Mad Mexican.

Gava Joe said...

Let me impose on Wally's generosity here and do a little self-promotion for the whole blog phenom. I'm going to open my anonymity a little in my own selfish effort to pursue one of my interests, that being "abnormal behaviour".. Some of those characters that plagued this board are cordially invited to visit the page I began today to vent your rage or flash your placas. I do'nt care. In The Hat is excellent for interested parties to learn about what Wally's header describes: gangs, neighborhoods,LA,the cops, etc. I visit daily but in some perverse way I miss the shitfests that Wally had to reject. Joe's got no books in the oven, and does'nt need to entertain any sense of order. Realize here and now that this is the place to come for serious data; that whatever runs on my page is probably going to be rude. So be it. As a budding anarchist can I ask more? Ya'll come, say hello. I'll brew a fresh batch of bhang..

StillNoScript said...

Agreed, Old Mad Mexican. But it would take at least a generation or two for the educated children to become adults and take society back from the uneducated. What do we do until then? If there's something that can defuse the violence between gangs, why not explore it?

And, the death penalty is not a long term solution. At the end of the day, it only satisfies a few, and just divides everyone else. (See: Tookie Williams. Nobody even gave a shit...until it hit the news. All of a sudden, everyone's on a side.) It would be impossible to have some kind of mass execution to really eliminate a signifigant number of gang members without executing people who really don't deserve to die, which will only divide Whites and Mexicans in America even further, being that most Mexicans will not be able to imagine such an approach taken against White gangs.

Sleepy Lagoon, all over again.

And, you guys don't need to be told what Blacks would do if a State or the U.S. congress decided to take a mass execution approach toward Blacks... The day such a law were passed would make April 29th of 1992 look like the Summer of Love.

Anonymous said...

i take it your Jewish and white ( or just a white republican)because of the references that you have made in your post.

O how you would love to see Mexican and Blacks fighting in the streets

Contender said...

Note to everyone, the march in 204 varrio already happened. Afterward the marchers headed to Bethel Baptist Church in Carson and guess how many Mexicans attended? Not 1, not 2, but 3!! Three, that's it. Around 100 people marched and only 3 raza showed up. And note to Wally, a whole lot of community members (including the girls mother and grandmother) were the ones who suggested the injunction.

Another side note, the NAACP. SCLC, and Project Islamic H.O.P.E were there and they had planned thier own march later on in January. Well Najee Ali thought the "message" was loud and clear and cancelled the one for Jan. What messsage if only 3 raza showed support and many other raza did the typical thing by standing in their doorway and looking wearily at the marchers. This is very sad and ugly thing to take place but only 3 weeks ago young Cheryl Greene was grounded because she told her family she was going to the movies and she instead headed guessed it, 206 and Harvard to hang with some friends. (sadly where she was killed) She was doing the typical teen thing by disobeying and unfortunately, it cost her her life. My heart and prayers go out to her family. Take care everyone.

Anonymous said...

To StillNoScript,

While I agree that the death penalty will not solve every problem of our society or all gang problems. I still believe a person has to suffer a consequence equal to his actions. If you execute someone your penalty should be the same i.e. the death penalty. Why should we be wasting millions of dollars to house a person like Charles Manson?

I am from the old school, where our father gave us a good beating when we did something wrong. And believe me I thought twice about the penalty for my miss-deeds. You need to teach your children this at an early age. I see too many parents who do not discipline or do know how to discipline their children. And the kids know that there are no consequences for a miss-deed. If they do a crime they know they will serve little or no time because of over-crowding in L.A. jails. Where is the deterrent?

At times we are our own worst enemy, when we ask the police for help and they police get tough we are quick to criticize them for a heavy handed approach. If we ourselves can not educate and discipline our kids and are protecting them from any consequence/penalty for their action how are things ever going to change in L.A.?

Too many blacks and Latinos except some miracle cure for our problems, like “just give us more money and everything will be solved”. The money will only come when we can bring more large retail stores and commercial business to the barrios to create a large tax base for the area. No large mall or entertainment complex is ever going to come to Los Angeles as long as the rest of society view us as a bunch of un-educated, gang-banging, food-stamp, and welfare dependent people.

I do volunteer work tutoring students and I can not even get the parents of these kids to get involved in any activities we plan for their own kids. So it was very poignant when I saw on the news and read in previous post how few Latinos got involved in the protest march which was held in the area of 206 and Harvard where Cheryl Greene was executed.

On a side note I started watching “The Wire” on HBO which I first dismissed as a stupid show about black gangs in Baltimore. But after watching several episodes I was quite impressed with the show which discusses politics, gangs and minorities in a large city.

Mad Mexican

N:. said...


In response to your previous commentary on one of the older posts - I repost the following quote:

"Thus far, I have been correct in my predictions regarding an increase in brown-on-black violent crime in Southern California. This trend will spread to the north as Southern California gang members keep pushing northward and taking territory from the Nortenos."

Surrenos in Sacramento, Salinas, etc. does represent the taking of territory that was once considered puro Norte. The old geographical dividing line between Sur and Norte has been and is being moved further north. Back to the topic at hand. In the grand scope of example based definitions for "ethnic cleansing" this single killing and the few that preceded it hardly fit the bill. I have yet to see any evidence or reasonable argument posited (Avenues included) that the actions of local Southern California turf gangs are tantamount to ethnic cleansing. This case is yet another sad example of a civilian caught up in the midst of our ongoing and ever continuing turf warfare. The politicians are clueless as ever (particularly the LA City Council) and the race baiting organizations such as the NAALCP is as impotent as ever. Kumbaya feel good marches and candle light vigils will do absolutely zero to address the problems at hand. Now if only there was an evil corporation that was involved for some shakedown cash...

N:. said...

Rioting at Chino:,0,6347744.story?coll=la-home-headlines

"As many as 1,000 inmates at the Chino state prison rioted for 90 minutes Saturday as guards struggled to stop the violence by firing pepper spray and gas grenades into several barracks, officials said.

Fifty-one inmates were treated for moderate to serious injuries, including one with stab wounds and head trauma, a prison spokesman said. No guards were hurt."

Gava Joe said...

I have to agree with the Old Mexican's opinion re. the death penalty. In this economy-driven society housing these perps of heinous crimes makes no economic sense. I like the Iraqi system which we just witnessed w/ Saddam, that being that execution WILL take place within 30 days of the verdict, no appeals, etc...

There's an old Persian folk story of a lecherous old crone aptly named the Rat Lady who was guilty of the most grievous crimes resulting in mutilations and black arts assasinations. Her reputation was universal, and it was rumored she had cursed all of Persia and all its conquests in foreign lands.The wise sages and priests determined that the only way to end the curse was to publicly execute the Rat Lady. One bright day they hung the old crone from a gallows and subsequently the land was transposed into a reaceful place, milk and honey, et al..
There is one and only one moral to this old story and it reverberates to this day:


Serious note: I met a convict in 70 or so at Soledad Central. He called himself Sick Nick and he was the DJ on the inter-institutional radio station.. This guy had been reprieved from Death Row when the Supreme court declared the penalty "cruel and unusual punishment", and frankly my friends I do'nt think i'll ever meet a more emotionally wounded individual for the rest of my life. Nick was originally convicted of multiple cop-slayings (CHP) back in the mid 50s and received the well deserved death penalty after micro-short jury deliberations. Nick had the hollow eyed look of a severe torture survivor. He spoke in that monotone as if he were hypnotized. He remained pale and never hit the yard. I learned later he feared the guard tower's mini-14 round because he was told on his way out of Quentin that they'd get him, Supreme Court or not..I moved on out to camp, but Nick will still be there doing the Big Bitch 30+ yrs hence. I'm thinking that if the cards were dealt different and he was sitting where I am knowing what he knows, he too would be an advocate for swift vengeance rather than the cruel and unusual life he lived...

trukos said...

you vato's knew this shit was coming

Anonymous said...

on the news her uncle said "he didnt like his neice hangin with the bad crowd on the corner but she did anyway" wasnt this gang related!? she was with the wrong crowd.. at the wrong place.. at the wrong time.. where does race play in this?? sounds like gangbangin to me

StillNoScript said...

N, what 'clues' is the L.A. City Council unaware of? And, what 'problem at hand' is the NAACP failing to address?

Also, there have always been Sureno gangs in Northern California, as I recall Tijuana Jailer telling us that even some early EME members were from N. Cal. Additional Sur numbers above the traditional line, which I believe has been Fresno for some time, does not signify a takeover. As far as I know, not one established Norte varrio has gone Sur. Same would go for Fresno. Although they no longer claim 14, they still fly the red and are still Nortenos in the cultural sense.

N, I just don't think your pipe dream is going to happen. And, with the new government things are bound to get better in inner cities, even if they do get worse beforehand. More state, county, federal jobs + more afterschool programs + more academic scholarships = less drug use, less drug sells, less recruits for gangs, and inevitibly a decline in inner city violence. I know that's your biggest nightmare, but if history repeats itself as it usually does, it's what's on the menu; Not a complete race war between Blacks and Mexicans and Mexicans and Mexicans.

Not saying it's going to be utopia, there will always be funk, especially in prisons, but overall things will die down. Who knows, we may find that it's some of those in the darker corners of the system, and their friendly pundits, that are really the ones who are blood thirsty, not the homeboys.

Contender said...

Hey anonymous, yes this situation exactly resembles the word "GANG RELATED" She was hanging with some dudes who were standing in a known drug/crip/violent spot. That corner is known for crips hanging there. What crips? Well, there is this little crip gang that started in 204 varrio a few yrs back called "208 St. Crips" They were different crips from various sets in L.A that moved to the Harbor Gateway to escape their L.A surroundings. At first everything was from the shoulders but as time progressed, so did the violence. And this is what the media or cops do not want ppl to know. This girl was a "wannabe" She was kicking back at a known gang/violent spot with some older cat and a few affiliates. In our society we all have to abide by the social rule that if "you walk, talk, and look like a duck, then ppl are going to assume your a duck" And guess what, they are going to treat you like one too. And this is what happended. it happens every single day in our country. If you look and act the part, then you are going to get treated as such. But the media wants to play the race card and so does this family. They know damn well this little girl was hanging with the wrong crowd and she paid the price for her actions. Personally I think it was "black" targeted violence. But I am willing to bet that some of the other ones that were shot were/are crip affiliated. Plus, no one is talking about her disobeying her parents or the little crip gang in that area that has commited shootings and crimes. All everyone is focused on is that racial aspect of it. Let's open our eyes and put our ears to the street and we will hear what's really going on.

Anonymous said...


Thank you for the info homeboy. Good looking out. Cuidate. C/R, Jose619

N:. said...


The LA City Council is clueless about competent governance and understanding the underlying reasons for the existence of the social disorder of the day. "Symbolic" resolutions on the Iraq war? How about doing their job and stop wasting tax payer dollars with their "symbolism." Agreeing to a multi-million dollar payout to a prankster mayat who cries racism? Absolute incompetence. The list goes on. When it comes to gang issues these political hacks have little to no understanding of the governing issues and even better - they have no real power to do a thing about the issues.

The "problem at hand" is gang violence. From everything that I have seen (in the general sense of the verb) the SUR is expanding in terms of people and power while Norte is contracting. Multiple Federal investigations complete with high level rats such as Lizard have further compounded the problem for Norte. We will see how well Norte does with new leadership now that the old guard has been moved to Federal prison. "Cultural sense" in reference to the Bulldogs does not really go too far now does it?

Speaking of pipe dreams... you think that the problems are going to go away or get better because you have people with the (D) that have been elected or because har Komrad Pelosi will be the Speaker of the House? Far be it from me to turn the cold fan of reality and history on your pipe dream but it would seem that you put too much faith and trust into the hands of politicians that have repeatedly shown that they are their own first and only priority. I can only hope that this wisdom that comes with age comes to you in time.

StillNoScript said...

Contender, I don't quite understand what you mean when you say that we all have to live by the social rule that if it quacks like a duck, and so forth. What do you suggest, we all look and act like George W. Bush or Larry Elder? Is that necessary in order to be entitled to live a life without worrying about someone gunning you down, or, more likely, being profiled by a cop?

And, if the girl was killed for breaking this so called unwritten rule, then why do you also state that it was indeed 'black targeted'? If it's Black targeted, than she could have gotten shot wearing a girl scout uniform.

StillNoScript said...

N, amazing you would be more concerned with the L.A. City Council wasting tax dollars symbolically voting down the Iraq war than the gross waste of tax dollars that the war is, itself. Unless, of course, you own stock in Halliburton.

If the 'problem at hand' is gang violence, then what is your solution?

Cultural sense regarding the Bulldogs meant that Bulldogs are not Surenos. They are, in the cultural sense, Nortenos. The point being made is that they still control the Fresno area, which is no small area, not the Sur. As far as anybody knows, not one single Norteno hood has been taken over by Surenos. Nobody's arguing that Surenos aren't moving up, and even by the boat load. You can see the tags right here in Sacra. But, on the same token, I haven't heard of them planting a flag on any traditional Norteno varrio, yet. There's been some engagement, especially in Salas, San Fran and Oakland. But the Nortenos are still holding their turf, which never was the outskirts of towns where most Surenos are moving to. The only turf Nortenos ever controlled was their own varrios, and they still control them.

I base my belief that gang violence will die down under Democratic rule of congress based on the measures taken in the 1990s by Bill Clinton to improve the American economy, the effect it's had on gang violence (and I don't credit ONLY it, either...), and the new Democratic congress undoubtedly taking the same measures. I think we're going to see an increase in state and federal jobs, and more afterschool programs for kids. Allthough it is certainly not the only thing that curtails gang violence (yes, this American would like to think that the cops are busting the bad guys), it has been proven to be effective. Sounds to me you just don't like the idea of it. You probably have other solutions that mostly involve blaming one race (based upon several of your past posts...) and using cruel and unusual tactics to compromise their gang activity, while perhaps looking the other way at the activities of another gang, and therefore my prediction, and the thought of it working, comes off as as a threat to your bloodthirsty fantasy.

N:. said...


The war is a worthy discussion in its own right but not by a governing body that has no power to influence a policy decision on it. The ineptitude of the LA City Council in regards to this issue is further exacerbated by their failure to solve the problems effecting the City that they actually have control over. These are the issues that they should be spending their time debating and solving instead of wasting their time and City tax payer dollars on symbolic votes that do less than absolutely nothing. As far as the Bulldogs go, for all relevant functional (key word here) purposes, they are a third entity in the Norte/Sur paradigm. They do not ally with Norte in the streets and they do not ally with Norte in the prison system. "Cultural" sense is again not particularly relevant to the these two contexts of preeminent importance. In regards to the Norte/Sur war as it relates to Northern California... give it time. As the numbers of the Sur increase in Northern California and if the Nuestra Familia don't resolve their leadership issues between their state and newly minted Federal faction, the future would appear to be grim for the NF and Nortenos in general. The fact that we are even discussing Surenos in Salinas, San Francisco and Oakland does not bode well for Norte given the lack of an equivalent discussion of Nortenos in South.

As far as my solution for dealing with gang violence - it is a poke in the eyes of both the conservatives and the liberals. The first question that I asked myself in evaluating this issue was "what is the single most important factor funding the rise of and supporting the continued existence and expansion of turf gangs?" The answer is simple and the underlying lesson is one that should have been learned with the abject failure of Prohibition. As a poke in the eye of the Puritanical Conservatives, drugs that are currently illicit need to be decriminalized. The funds raised with the sale of illicit drugs not only fund our resident turf gangs but result in transnational crime syndicates that produce global instability and hardships for the populace. In this regard, "job training" and other social empowerment programs of this type sound nice but one must consider the following question - "what jobs can one engage in that provide the same level of financial compensation as engaging in the manufacture or sale of illicit drugs?" The answer to this question are very few if any. For the legal employment opportunities that are present, the trade off for financial compensation is years of specialized training (such as the criminal oligopoly of health care provision - Halliburton has nothing on the AMA). Also, while the contention of "being down for the neighborhood" sounds good in theory, I suspect that the majority of the turf battles that arise from this thought process deal with protecting drug turf. The decriminalization of drugs that are currently illegal would pull the funding from all of the gangs - local and transnational. Also, the production and sale of these drugs would allow for actual regulation (not this bogus "war on drugs" failure that has only served to destroy civil liberties) and appropriate taxation of these substances. The second important area for reform is the prison system. The criminal code for non-violent drug offenders needs to be axed and people convicted of "possession crimes" need to be freed. The second aspect of prison reform is the protection of prisoners within the system from other prisoners. No prisoner is legally sentenced to be assaulted, shook down or raped in prison. The current system not only allows for all of these activities to happen but increases their chances of happening. This in turn empowers the prison gangs both by engendering fear in the non-gang prison population and by increasing the numbers of those that desire membership as a basic necessity for survival. Single occupant cells, a reduction in the prison population by removing non-violent drug offenders, getting rid of dormitory style housing, closing old prisons down and replacing them with newer more modern prisons, increasing the guard to inmate ratios and limiting prisoner-to-prisoner contact would greatly aid this objective. Now for a poke in the eye of the Liberals. Instead of coddling and excusing the behavior of adults when they screw up - there needs to be accountability (the social contract works both ways). People committing crimes to obtain money to obtain drugs (under either the legal or illegal paradigm) need to have the hammer dropped on them (think of a hate crime enhancement but instead this would be a drug crime enhancement to the underlying criminal action). Having children needs to be viewed as a privilege and not a right (god forbid that one can actually take care of the children they pop out). Social programs need to be viewed as contracts with give/take between the recipients as well as society and the effectiveness needs to be judged on results and not a sense of "doing something" or "feeling good." Finally, society needs to grow a thicker skin and stop this bullshit of appeasing the "offended" amongst us. Appeasing the whiners that cry racism at every step is patently pathetic and needs to stop being bandied about as the default accusation of attack whenever a "person of color" is involved. These are my solutions - sorry to disappoint given your preconceived notions of what you expected to here. BTW, with Clinton, it was a Republican Congress that was also present. This is another example of how having the Legislative and Executive branches leads to at worst compromise legislation that blunts both extremes of ideology and at best creates wonderful gridlock to prevent further government intrusion into the lives of the citizenry.

Contender said...

SNS, what I am refering too is people are going to judge you on the way you act. Right or wrong? What you wear, how you speak, everything. And no, I am not saying we should all act like Bush or Elder. Let's talk apples and apples not bannanas and apples. First off, I am very familair with what's going on in that area. I have family from various varrios that consist of Flats, ES Torrance, and 204. Weird huh? Anyways, she was hanging with the wrong crowd, even her pops acknowledged it. That spot is known for crips to chill there. She knew it was a bad apot, she choose to hang there, and she paid the consequence for her actions. I think it is wroing that she was killed but she was hanging with the wrong crowd in an area that is known for attacking blacks. She was tempting fate. She was playing cat and mouse. Sad but true.

So you're saying anyone anywhere should be able to hang in known spots and nothing should happen? Wishful thinking don't you think? Come on man, we al know that does not fly. If you are Mexican and you and your boys decide to hang on the corner of 204 and Harvard, or 204 and Denker, etc. And you look the part (bald head, baggy pants, white tees, etc) then guess what? TF or EST or any of 204 enemies are going to drive by assume you are a 204 because they know that is where 204 hangs. Even if you don't bang, you know that is a shady spot, hence you are acting and associating yourself like a duck (or in this case, a 204 streeter) and you are going to suffer the consequences of that action. Point blank. This young girl was not selling lemonade to support her drill team, nor was she talking her dog for a walk. She was a 14yr old hanging with an 18 yr old, a 21 yr old and another person on a street corner that is known as a boundary line for violence between blacks and Mexicans. She was tempting fate. Was this an ethnic cleansing? I think so, but where does her responsibilty fall? 2 weeks ago she was grounded for hanging on the same corner. She told her family she was going to the movies and they found her on 206 and Harvard. What does that tell you? Did she derserve to die? Of course not, but she was playing with fire and ultimately got burned. And that's what the media and this blog is leaving out.

bigbear said...


StillNoScript said...

Jesus Christ, N, a couple of thought provoking questions turn you from a right wing racist to a sensible libertarian.

- For the third time, I'm well aware that Fresno no longer claims 14, and vice versa. But, Fresno is not claiming Sur, either. And, considering their style, hip hop combined with traditional Chicano culture, mirroring that of 14, it's easy to say that they are 'cultural Nortenos'. They are. It's an accurate term. Fresno is not 14, but Fresno is indeed Norte Califas.

- You were the one that brought up tax dollars being wasted in regards to the L.A. city council (and did so again in your recent comment). I find it funny that if you're concerned about ANY waste of tax dollars, that you could be more concerned with the L.A. city council fucking off a day's pay than you would the war itself, which may be one of the largest waste of tax dollars in American history.

If a Norteno gang moved anywhere near L.A., they would be moved on almost immediately. There have been Sureno gangs in Northern California from the get go. Yet, Nortenos never made any real moves to remove them. I don't know this, but I'm guessing that the philosophy of Nortenos has always been a defensive one, where as the Sur has always been an OFFensive one. Tijuana Jailer illustrated this over and over regarding the early days of EME, how the EME was about exploitation and aggression. Is it possible that the NF was sort of an antithesis of this, like wise their Norteno spawn on the streets? In other words, the Sur being more about GAINING turf and the Norte more about PROTECTING the turf that they have?

StillNoScript said...

Contender, with all due respect, you're coming off with a lot of 'captain obvious' stuff. I didn't grow up in Compton but I'm not from the moon, either. I'm well aware of what could happen if i shaved my head, wore a t shirt and a pair of kakhi shorts, and hung out on 204th street. The difference between my outlook and your outlook is that you seemed to have made a religion out of this for yourself, with little thought as to how it wound up that way. I'm more interested in knowing why we live in a society where such rigid lines are drawn, why these lines tend to become a lot thicker when conservatives are running the country, and rather or not anyone civil rights are being violated by law enforcement per these lines. (again, it's a thousand times more likely someone will be confronted by a police officer for dressing the way you describe than they will a gang member). Lots of kids in L.A. dress in what we could describe as a Sureno style yet are not gangsters. What's wrong with wearing a dodger hat and driving an Impala? Why should he have to change his life style? I understand that someone could mistaken him for another gang member, but that's his risk. Where I draw the line is where he's declined his civil rights due to the very 'unwritten rules' that you so much champion.

Anonymous said...

My sentiments exaclty Wally...

Anonymous said...

Janice Hahn is your typical democrat who address issues according to political expediency. I'm sure she wouldn't be throwing the Consitituion out the window if the aggressors were Al Qaeda sympathists. Once again Latinos are easy targets for political expediency. While I don't condone it, it doesn't take a genius to see why some surenos take matters into their own hands...

N:. said...


"Cultural similarity" is, again, irrelevant to the issue of functional organization and allegiance both on the streets and in the prison system. Crips and Bloods share cultural similarities but they might as well be Seljuqs and Crusaders when it comes to their interaction in the streets. The Bulldogs are significant enough to make a difference in the "two party system" at their local level (i.e. in Fresno)but they are not Norte by any stretch of the imagination.

With the war issue (let us try this again) - It is a Federal issue. City level votes are useless as they have no functional effect on the problem (giving the far left a nice warm feeling in their diapers is not enough). The LA City Council has more than enough LOCAL issues to evaluate and vote upon and actually affect (aka screw up) instead of wasting days on issues in which their vote is meaningless.

I think we can view the Norte/Sur strategies using a simple adage from the business world. A company that is not growing/expanding is one that is dying. The purely defensive strategy of just attempting to hold one's turf is akin to stagnation. Realistically, how long will this strategy work in the face of overwhelming numbers from the Sur invasion of Northern California? A few years? Decades perhaps? In the end, however, the superior numbers of Sur13 will result in dominance in both the prison system and on the streets.

StillNoScript said...

Yeh, far be it from Republicans to address issues according to political epediency. Remember that whole immigration thing?

And, what is it that Surenos are taking into their own hands?

StillNoScript said...

N:. said...

"SNS: "Cultural similarity" is, again, irrelevant to the issue of functional organization and allegiance both on the streets and in the prison system."

In the prison system, agreed. On the streets, disagreed. The first indication that Surenos were taking over Fresno, which is in Northern California territory in regards to the Norte/Sur divide, would be that young Fresno vatos were acting like Surenos. Far as I see, and I know Fresno well, nobody's turning in the Tommy Hilfiger for brown khakis, white T shirt and Dodger hats.

"Crips and Bloods share cultural similarities but they might as well be Seljuqs and Crusaders when it comes to their interaction in the streets. "

You've actually got that assed backwards. One of the reasons the Bloods became Bloods is because the Crips killed a guy in Hollywood over a jacket. Until then, everybody was down with Crips. Those who became Bloods believed that the whole Crip thing should be about defense, not offense. (sound familiar?)

And, today, there probably is more of a common purpose between Crips and Bloods because of the rivarly both are having with the Sur.

"The Bulldogs are significant enough to make a difference in the "two party system" at their local level (i.e. in Fresno)but they are not Norte by any stretch of the imagination. "

They are Nortenos. They just don't claim NF or 14. Go to Fresno and see for yourself. Compare their behavior to that of the Sur and that of the Nortenos further North and in the bay, and you'll see their style, their slang, the whole 9 is part and parcel of the rest of Norte Califas.

"With the war issue (let us try this again) - It is a Federal issue. City level votes are useless as they have no functional effect on the problem (giving the far left a nice warm feeling in their diapers is not enough). The LA City Council has more than enough LOCAL issues to evaluate and vote upon and actually affect (aka screw up) instead of wasting days on issues in which their vote is meaningless."

And, let me try this again, it was YOU who raised the issue of tax dollars being wasted. Scroll up and read your own shit. Again, for the I don't know how many-ith time, There is no single comparison between the waste of tax dollars that was the rather futile vote by the LA CC and the FUTILE WAR, itself, in Iraq. Saddam's execution came at a huge tab, yet the entire campaign accomplished nothing in the war on terror. It was a complete waste, except for those who own stock Halliburton. If the L.A. City council's vote outrages you more than that, then tax dollars is the last thing you're concerned about.

"I think we can view the Norte/Sur strategies using a simple adage from the business world. A company that is not growing/expanding is one that is dying. The purely defensive strategy of just attempting to hold one's turf is akin to stagnation. Realistically, how long will this strategy work in the face of overwhelming numbers from the Sur invasion of Northern California? A few years? Decades perhaps? In the end, however, the superior numbers of Sur13 will result in dominance in both the prison system and on the streets."

That may be so, but what do you mean when you say 'dominance'? Is the Sur going to dominate everything? The united States? Sounds like you're a little bit delusional when it comes to the sur's resources and ability. And, there's a huge difference between a business and a street gang, as a business is in business soley for profit. There's more motivation for the North to hold their ground than simply remaining globally competitive. It's up to the Norte to decide when they're going to close their doors. There's been no indication of them doing so, yet.

N:. said...


You are a fucking riot man. You can not go more than one post without going off topic. Deviating from the substance of the post and instead of discussing the issues, you start personal beefs with the poster(s) who are involved in the discussion. I have met a lot of people in my time and the attitude that you exhibit of unbridled arrogance that serves as a facade for ignorance is one that is common for those from the far left. I hate to think that my time is wasted in discussing anything with you but after observing your behavior in interacting with other posters, perhaps it is. Perhaps when you grow up and are able to carry on a discussion that sticks to the issues at point, we can again continue our dialog. Until then,good luck in life... you apparently are in need of it.

StillNoScript said...

Lol, okay. So, it wasn't you who complained about a waste of tax dollars by the L.A. City Council?

It wasn't you who claimed that Surenos are 'continuing' to take over Northern California, when I merely asked you to name one Norte varrio that has gone Sur?

Because those are the only points I've responded to, in which I still haven't gotten an answer out of you, only an attempt to use your initial assertions on these topics as the answers themselves, when they are not. I'm refuting your claims, not asking you for a clarification. I had you loud and clear from the get go. I just think you're full of shit.

Now, I see your final move is to give me a guilt trip for ever questioning your long winded, pontificating sermons on Sureno rule, Democratic Party corruption and how Blacks are ruinning this world even though they control less than 1% of it's economic, social, or military policies. My advice is if you don't want to be taken to task for making ridiculous claims, don't make them.

Anonymous said...


Go get some help bro, you really need it. Sounds to me like your anger mismanagement makes you go out of your way in looking for reasons to disagree with people.

Anonymous said...

Goodbye SNS. A healthy debate is one thing. Turning your posts into diatribes against other posters (ad hominem attacks) is something that is completely different. Perhaps you consider it a "victory" or "taking someone to task" when they stop debating you because your posts stray off of the issues and delve into the realm of personal attacks... but most here and most (likely) elsewhere would not agree with such a conclusion. Good luck finding someone else to correspond with.

StillNoScript said...

Two questions remain in the balance for N:

1) What Norteno varrios have been taken over by Surenos?

2) Is the wasting of tax dollars (considering it even is a waste of tax dollars, considering the fact that just a few years later that majority of the nation would share their sentiments..) by the L.A. City council to vote down the Iraq war better or worse than the wast of tax dollars that is the futile, and, dare I say, SYMBOLIC war itself?

N has made these claims yet refused to answer these questions regarding them. He's instead chosen to delve into some kind of guilt trip. N can think whatever he likes of StillNoScript, but it doesn't change the fact that his absence from answering these questions has been noted, and that he will continue to be asked these questions whenever he makes the above claims in the future.

Anonymous said...

Guilt trip? Hardly. The rules of intellectual debate preclude the use of ad hominem personal attacks. Arguing and debating the positions is one thing but attacking the posters that make said positions is another.

1. Not really sure. The presence of Sur varios in places like Salinas, San Francisco and Oakland and the corresponding lack of Norte varios in places such as Los Angeles or San Diego speaks volumes.

2. They are both equally pathetic and inexcusable. Had this war been a "war for oil" (i.e. a war to secure our national interests by maintaining a supply to a precious natural resource) then I could understand. A half-baked boondoggle to bring democracy to Iraq is unforgivable. We should have done what the French and Russians did and made a backdoor deal to violate the useless "Oil for Food" program. It would have been a lot cheaper in both dollar costs and in American lives. Correspondingly, waisting time and tax payer money on a useless resolution while urgent matters needing the utmost attention at the city level continue to go unresolved is also unforgivable.

StillNoScript said...

N, if there were anyone governing us on the rules of intellectual debate you would be the first one disqualified. Anyone who refers to others as 'mayate handholders' or the 'kumbaya crowd' for merely denouncing violence against Blacks looks pretty funny when when just days later they're calling on others to not name-call.

You made the comment days ago that Surenos would 'continue' to take over Northern California, and that because of this, Blacks should be aware. In order for there to be any kind of a takeover one would have to assume that Surenos have taken over a Norteno neighborhood.

I don't know why there are no Nortenos in Los Angeles. I gave a guess and I'll let you speculate as to why. Frankly, I'm not concerned.

It's pretty well common knowledge that most Surenos in Norte Califas are undocumented, or first generation Chicano, and that a few Surenos from L.A. are moving up to organize them. In a gang like, say, White Fense, you have probably hundreds of hard core, 3rd, 4th, plus generation Chicanos who were urban born and urban raised, with a small number of undocumented immigrants that they jump in. In the North, it's vice versa for the average Sureno gang. It's not to say that the immigrants aren't tough, but let's face it, they are not the type of Sureno you're going to find in inner L.A. L.A. is ghetto. It's hard core. It's a city like any other big city where people who grow up there, in poverished areas, have to watch their backs 24/7. Most Surenos up here didn't grow up in that type of environment. They may have been poor, but the violence was not rampant. And, same can be said for most of these small town Norteno gangs. Salinas and Stockton would probably be exceptions, both for Nortenos and Surenos. Those towns are pretty violent, and Modesto's getting there, too.

I think when people debate the differences between Nortenos and Surenos what's usually overlooked is the poverty and the drug market in Los Angeles, and the role it plays in the Surenos having more numbers and power than Nortenos, especially in prison. I mean, that's how you get to prison. Committing crimes. Well, at least that's how minorities and poor whites get there. Middle Class Whites and above usually have to walk into a building with an automatic rifle and wipe out the entire lobby to get sent upstate. Even in many of those cases, they still get sent to the old country club with barbed wire.

Regarding Iraq, I was addressing your comment about 'tax dollars' being spent. Again, if you are even equally as outraged at the minuscule waste of tax dollars by the L.A. City council as you are about the war itself, then I'm not buying that you're concerned about tax dollars in the slightest. There must be another reason, and I don't care what it is. I already know your local politics and I don't need an encore. I was addressing the issue of tax dollars being spent.

Anonymous said...


There is a difference in personal attacks on a fellow poster vs. referring to the blacks (a group) as mayates (which they are). The same goes for the kumbya crowd. As far as the Surenos continuing to take over the northern part of this state, let us consider that the delineation between Norte and Sur, from the geographical perspective, has shifted further northward to the point now where Sur and Norte varios are present in the same cities - cities in Northern California. If the current paradigm continues and Norte remains in a defensive posture while the Sur continues to expand aggressively coupled with the multigenerational establishment of Sur varios in the North... the picture for the Nortenos would appear to be bleak indeed. I found the following to be of interest:

Under the photos section, there is a photograph showing some Nortenos with the caption of the following: " Norteño friends. Their enemies are Sureños, mostly Mexican immigrants, like the neighbors across the street." Sureno neighbors across the street!?! Regarding jail time, the only color that matters is green. Middle class citizens of all colors have access to better legal representation. As far as the LA City Clowncil, they were not elected to dictate foreign policy nor do they have the power to effect the war. The war as a waste of tax dollars as a federal issue is one thing and appropriately debated at the Federal level. The Clowncil wasting time and local tax dollars on this issue, when they have zero power over the issue, is yet another waste of tax dollars. Angelinos have enough problems in regards to the issues that the Clowncil members have power over and were elected to deal with.